atarionline.pl ATARI XE vs C64 - Forum Atarum

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Vanilla 1.1.4 jest produktem Lussumo. Więcej informacji: Dokumentacja, Forum.

    • 1: CommentAuthorpyniek9999
    • CommentTime6 Jan 2020
     
    @tebe

    No faktycznie fajne kolo ma kawałki.
    • 2:
       
      CommentAuthorcrrn
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020
     
    Widzę że koledzy atarowcy odkryli LMana. Faktycznie wymiata i warto posłuchać jego inne kawałki np cover z Thrust - jak dla mnie MEGA! A LMana uważam w tej chwili na jednego z najlepszych nowoczesnych muzyków na C64.

    A Przy okazji, bo wspomniano że to gra na 2 SIDach to chcę sprostować - to jest wszystko jeden SID tylko player robi takie cuda że wplata kanały samplowe w kanały normalne SIDa. Generalnie kawałek do odpalenia na gołym C64.

    I jak już jesteśmy to warto wspomnieć że wspomniany autor tego playera THCM napisał na tej zasadzie odtwarzacz migowych MODów na gołym C64- oczywiście jeśli zmieszczą się w pamięci 64kb. proponuje poszukać dema Vicious SID
    • 3:
       
      CommentAuthorvoy
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    Na Evie LMan też fajnie gra. :D

    EDIT: link w poście Mono. :)
    • 4: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    A to nie miał być ten? :)
    LMan to chyba Markus Klein.
    • 5:
       
      CommentAuthorvoy
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    Oj, przekleiłem nie ten link co trzeba. :P Dzięki, Mono.
    • 6: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020
     
    Ale nie trzeba było kasować :) Tamten też fajnie grał.
    • 7:
       
      CommentAuthorvoy
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    No to dajemy jeszcze raz. :)

    Przy zgrywaniu ustawiłem trochę za mały poziom na wejściu liniowym i jest nieco zbyt cicho.

    • 8: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020
     
    The LMAN stuff sounds impressive. But there is some mixed truth.
    Today it is no problem to adjust Synthesizers to sound like SID. So people would simply expect that.
    Other people didn't expect to hear a real SID? What does that mean exactly? There is no real SID. There are more than 5 different Types of SID Chips, and with the 8580 the Chip isn't "SID" anymore.
    It's name is the same , it is PIN compatible, but it is NOT the SID that Hubbard used in the early days.
    Also, they clamped poor little PAULA to sound like SID in lot of games.
    It's like looking TV. Today everything is fully digitized, there is a lot electronics making Digital Images out of the Nature. As the Nature in Movies is set to look digital , it is no problem to put digital stuff into it, to make unreal things look real.

    I wonder about the CPU usage of those tunes.
    • 9: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime7 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    @emkay: Of course it is not the same chip. It's possible it isn't clear what hardware was used because information about it is placed in movie description on Youtube and isn't visible here. Following quotation is copied from YT:

    "Hardware used: Atari 800XE, Rapidus accelerator board (20 MHz), VideoBoard XE 2.1, SimpleStereo, Ultimate 1MB, IDE+ interface (rev. F) and Evie soundcard."

    CPU usage is small because Rapidus is used.

    Evie is a soundcard implementing SID chip guts in FPGA. There are three types of filter you can choose:
    - linear (most compatible to such defined by SID design paper),
    - 6581 (old SID chip style filter)
    - and 8580 (new SID style filter).
    Voy used linear filter at the first movie and 8580 at the second one.
    • 10: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    @mono

    LMAN explains more than one time that he uses the 8580 chip.
    The 8580 chip is a lot more capable in music creation than any of the 6580 chips.
    But , keep in mind that the 8580 chip is from 1987. This is about ten years later than the POKEY.
    Actually, they could have build a real synth chip into the C64 that is sound compatible to the C64.

    And Yes, there is a difference in the filter. The other difference is the volume change, not resulting in an unwanted "click" , that was a break for early digitizing with 6580 chips. But they found a different solution.
    In short: The 8580 Chip is optimized for MIDI usage.
    • 11:
       
      CommentAuthorarchieil
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020
     
    A co śmieszne 8580 był tylko w części komputerów w Polsce pomimo tego, że praktycznie wszystkie były w sprzedaży po tym jak zakończyli produkcję starego SID-a.

    Co więcej swego czasu to bodajże 8580 był uważany za gorszego SID-a ze względu na cichsze sample.
    • 12: CommentAuthorJacques
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    Tzn. w jakich modelach w Polsce występował starszy SID?

    W teorii nowego SID-a miały wszystkie C64C, C64G (jasne bochenki) oraz C64 "ALDI".

    Stare SID-y występowały w starych bochenkach z ciemną klawiaturą oraz w nowszej obudowie jak C64C, ale z oznaczeniem C64 na plakietce znamionowej (a nie C64C - pomimo takiej obudowy).

    P.S.
    Ja chcę Evieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... ;-)
    • 13: CommentAuthortebe
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020
     
    ciekawe jak na C64 wygląda detekcja PAL / NTSC, czy też muszą pisać dwie wersje dla każdego z systemów TV ?
    • 14: CommentAuthorVidol
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020
     
    chyba podobne jak u nas. Czesto w trainerach do gier pojawia sie ntsc fix. Spotkalem sie z gra w ktorej crackerzy przeniesli panel na gore ekranu zeby dzialalo na ntsc :)
    • 15:
       
      CommentAuthorarchieil
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020
     
    @tebe
    przerwania VBLANK nie przeskoczą.
    50Hz <-> 60Hz
    • 16: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    @tebe

    They don't really have that VSYNC problem on the C64. As the main graphics is build on characters, they can use the characters for double buffer.
    Games that had been created for NTSC and don't have the "time" to set up in a frame, will be set in the next frame.
    You can see that in Rescue on Fractalus. Even if the game is rather slow, it looks faster by that partly "after drawing" in char regions.
    One frame is showing in two frames. As it isn't just a tearing , you don't recognize it easily.
    In numbers it is like

    Atari shows 6 fps
    C64 shows 3 fps but looks like 4 to 5 fps

    That might be one fact, why "Capture the Flag" never made it to the C64. The "technical trick" would have destroyed the imagination of a 3D projection.
    The VIC20 has worse graphics, but only is addressing the half memory. But they also used that interleaved trick that made it look faster than it is. In numbers:

    Atari 8 fps both windows at the same time.
    VIC20 one window 4 fps plus the 2nd window 4 fps, looks like 8 fps.

    Could be interesting to find a solution to get that to the Atari. Possibly a splittet screen with several RAM regions , and only parts of it get changed. It would make Rescue on Fractalus looking like 12 fps.
    • 17:
       
      CommentAuthorKaz
    • CommentTime9 Jan 2020
     

    emkay:

    Could be interesting to find a solution to get that to the Atari. Possibly a splittet screen with several RAM regions , and only parts of it get changed. It would make Rescue on Fractalus looking like 12 fps


    Interesting idea, indeed. Can you try to prepare the program to show this effect?
    • 18:
       
      CommentAuthorarchieil
    • CommentTime9 Jan 2020
     
    #emkay
    It is not just a matter of fitting inside the frame.

    C-64 can use 50Hz/60Hz clock interrupt to sync the code but all scrolls made for different Hz will be less smooth.
    • 19: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime9 Jan 2020
     
    @archieil

    C64/VICII can have NTSC timing in PAL and PAL timing in NTSC?

    There is definitely something more going on in Rescue on Fractalus.
    At least it looks like a two iteration step method.
    Most is drawn in the back buffer (big calculation part, low detail), then the buffers get swapped. And some details on the visible screen get filled between the frames spread over the screen (better details, less amount of calculations) .
    As the interrupt usage is fully different, they seem to have the solutions different from the base of coding on the C64.
    Interesting.
    • 20:
       
      CommentAuthorarchieil
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    @emkay

    C-64 do not need to use per screen frame interrupt to sync anything.
    It can use dedicated clock interrupt.

    Atari - POKEY can do sound or do clock interrupts but not both
    • 21: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    @archieil

    OK. I thought there is something new within the Breadbin :)

    On the C64 they do that very often, to draw 2 frames and use interleaved lines.
    Doing that, also would reduce the tearing , if no vertical syncing is used. On a weak TV set it also looks like a morphed graphics effect.
    • 22:
       
      CommentAuthorshanti77
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    @emkay kiedy nauczysz się polskiego?
    • 23: CommentAuthorzbyti
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    @shanti77 wtedy kiedy Polska będzie mocarstwem atomowym ;P
    • 24: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    Wtedy będzie musiał :) A z własnej i nieprzymuszonej woli?
    • 25:
       
      CommentAuthorshanti77
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    Wiadomo ,prawdziwi koderzy mówią po polsku ;)
    • 26: CommentAuthorGonzo
    • CommentTime10 Jan 2020
     
    ślepa uliczka, z której nie ma wyjścia, jak do tej pory nie spotkałem się z czymś takim, kwas totalny, i żal, że to akurat shanti tak kwasi.
    nie mogę w to uwierzyć, miałem się jakiś czas nie odzywać, ale nie wytrzymałem.

    emkay - pisz co chcesz i jak chcesz, i nie przejmuj się, każdy ma prawo się wypowiedzieć, ja np. lubię sobie poczytać jak ludzie mają różne punkty widzenia
    • 27:
       
      CommentAuthorshanti77
    • CommentTime11 Jan 2020
     
    @Gonzo nie spinaj tak pośladków :)
    • 28: CommentAuthorGonzo
    • CommentTime11 Jan 2020
     
    a właśnie, że będę, bo tak :)
    • 29:
       
      CommentAuthorKaz
    • CommentTime11 Jan 2020
     
    Emkay - keep going. This is an open forum, for Atari fans.
    • 30: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime12 Jan 2020
     
    @KAZ

    Of course I'm still doing things there.
    It's still too much unexplored.


    This time I'm playing around with POKEY 4 channel modulations and resulting waves.

    The nice part is that it sounds very spacy .

    • 31:
       
      CommentAuthorKaz
    • CommentTime14 Jan 2020
     
    Nieźle, nieźle.
    • 32: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime14 Jan 2020
     
    @emkay: Is it Space Debris inspired tune? Your tune sounds very similar.
    • 33: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime14 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    @mono

    It is :)

    There are several solutions used in the tune that allowed this quality.
    It plays at the correct frequency range , and it uses "accumulating modulations" . Same as in the MOD original.
    It's just some missing Tracker features that don't allow some FX .
    But it's sufficient enough to be tuned from the start to the end :)

    And, there are no unwanted distortions.
    It's played in ALTIRRA with non linear mixing.

    Not to forget : It is real 4 channel and only using very low CPU . So it's no trick or else.
    It's just the use of what POKEY offers.
    • 34: CommentAuthorrbej1977
    • CommentTime15 Jan 2020
     
    ->link<-

    Coraz lepiej wygląda strzelaninka od Jane.
    • 35: CommentAuthorrbej1977
    • CommentTime18 Jan 2020
     
    Najnowszy filmik

    ->link<-
    • 36: CommentAuthorzbyti
    • CommentTime26 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    Tak się napalałem przy zajawce a w finale gameplay i wykonanie mnie rozczarowuje.

    • 37: CommentAuthorVidol
    • CommentTime26 Jan 2020
     
    slabe to
    • 38: CommentAuthorzbyti
    • CommentTime29 Jan 2020
     
    • 39:
       
      CommentAuthorDracon
    • CommentTime29 Jan 2020 zmieniony
     
    Dla przypomnienia, bo pasuje do tematu. A może ktoś nie wi(e)dział? A raczej nie słyszał(?). :P
    ->link<-
    • 40: CommentAuthorzbyti
    • CommentTime12 Feb 2020